As another "who's being put through the wringer at [their] church." I want to thank you for this post.
There is indeed an increasing distance between the God of the scriptures and the god of the church - and I find it frustrating but also hurtful.

"It's the neo-gnosticism that masquerades as gospel, with a spiritual heaven and a spiritual salvation and a spiritual Jesus who really doesn't give a rat's behind about what happens in the here-and-now, so long as you're not sleeping around and are pissed off at people who are."

Let me clarify something here: You did mean "rat's ass," is that correct?

Seriously - I'm praying for you and with you, brother.

Peace,
An Angry Young Man

That's what NT Wright says on New Creation all in the context of both Genesis and Rev 21 1nd 22!

Hope you are well

lorna - been there. I know how you feel. My buddy and I were reflecting on our parallel situations yesterday, he from the perspective of a recent hurt and I from that of a more distant one, so that was fresh in my mind as I was writing.

Scott - you know, I don't remember doing that bit of self-editing.... ;)

gordon - Wright has been a constant stimulation to think more in the context of New Creation. I found a lecture of his that was given recently where he talked about space and time in the context of the sacraments - it was really thought-provoking. And, of course, the theme of New Creation is significant through much of his work - I love his stuff. ;)

Scott,

Perhaps it is our age difference, but the "circling the wagons of conservafundagelicalism" comes as no surprise to this middle aged angry man fighting the past spiritual abuses of the evangelical main line church, while seeking to grasp the refreshing best of the emerging church and still working, living, and talking with my abusers.

Some people just do not get it - they do not understand the hurt and abuse that has been piled upon several generations of young people, many of
whom are now middle age and have run from the church. To accept that reality means to acknowledge that their gospel is flawed. (And it is...)

Twenty or thirty years from now, will today's emergents be willing to admit our abuses, our failings, our mistakes? I pray we will, because we will have them. Yes, we are new creations and thanks to a doctrine called regeneration, I have a new heart that has made good, but the sinful nature is still there within me. (That by the way should scare you, because it scares me!)

Scott and others, I hear your anger and commend it. It is righteous and well placed. Here is the question I have for you though, one I learned in counseling, "Can we take our anger and channel it in a good, proper, righteous, and just way? If so, what would that look like?" As one dealing with the old farts on a regular basis, I need to know.

Bob B.

Many prayers for you and our mutual brother (God knows his name, though I do not).

I am reminded of the introduction to my Ryrie study Bible. He cautions us to avoid the thinking that we've discovered something in the words that no one before has found.

It occurs to me that much of the frustration that many feel--don't think those (self)labeled emergent are alone in this--in the church comes from this powerful sense of personal revelation.

I've had such feelings, so I count myself a party to this. But we must never allow ourselves to suffer from the same malady that our brothers and sisters in the establishment have.

Here is the gist. A believer reads a passage of scripture, hears a sermon, or feels the moving of the Spirit (this might happen all at once or slowly over time); then they become convicted of a truth and more importantly a practice or way forward action to realize that truth.

(say, "caring for the poor" or "saving unborn babies")

Then they act. Sometimes they succeed and sometimes they fail. Here lies the most dangerous moment. When they fail they attribute that failure to opposition. And they see that opposition as people.

They say, "if only I could get THEM to stop opposing me, I could realize this truth."

To correct this problem, they seek out ways to void the opposition. If the opposition can't be reasoned with, they resort to the only other earthly method available: POWER.

So they may try the authority of scripture, the mechanisms of church governance, the force of wealth, or civil structures like the law. They do all this in the name of the truth they believe God has put as a burden on them to realize.

Well, it's obvious what follows. Eventually the work they've been called to do is sublimated by the quest for power over the opposition to insure the success of the work. They become a slave to their own desire for power (no matter how altruistic).

I humbly offer this advice. First, walk carefully on even the most important "truths". I hold many absolutes in my heart, I won't deny it, but I must temper my prophesy with love (else it'll be only a clanging cymbal).

Second and possibly the most important. Stop seeing PEOPLE as the enemy. Refuse all notions of being at war with PEOPLE. There are many much more Biblical notions of our enemy. Principalities and Spiritual Powers, Sin, Despair, even "the flesh" itself (as it's set against Spirit, NOT in gnostic terms).

Remember what John teaches us, that fellowship (perfect fellowship) comes through confession to one another, where Christ covers all our sin.

It isn't through getting others to admit we are right that we form the Church as body of Christ, but in our weakness and admission of being "in need" of a Savior (and our brothers and sisters) in the first place.

This "war" is God's to fight. He's the power on the field. Battles will be won and lost not for our personal satisfaction (or understanding) but by God's will and in His good time for His glory.

Seek in all things humility. Thinking on Paul's admonition in Philippians (that others are better than ourselves).

Maybe such a way of life by us will reach their hearts better than even the greatest upheaval in church history would. After all, we want to change their hearts, not trample them to dust. We must LOVE one another, even those we see as our enemies.

Am I not speaking of the fruits of the Spirit?

Brothers do not be tempted by the evil around you. Do not give up on your first hope, Christ. He isn't distant and uncaring what happens in this world, He is ALIVE IN YOU. Live that life and let those who vex you fall into the worst category of shame (if you must) and simply ignore them.

conservafundagelicalism - best word I've heard in a long time.

I hear your frustrations. I think a lot of people in the church are increasingly frustrated with it. It is the driving force behind movements like the Emerging Church, or the numbers of former evangelicals switching to Greek Orthodoxy or Catholicism in search of a Christianity that is not shallow. Shallow it is. By understanding salvation is merely a heavenly euphoria, and understanding Christianity as only about that sort of salvation, we have lost much of the depth of Christianity.

Bob - hey man. Hope all is well. I was going to say that I'm not all that surprised by the circling of the wagons, but I guess that's not really true. Somehow I continue to be surprised. And I guess it's the audacity of some of what's been going on recently - and Dobson is probably the best example of this - that has me frustrated. As to your question, what would it look like, I think that deserves more than a hasty answer, and in truth it's a question that I think we need to always continue to ponder. But let me think more on that.

David - much wisdom in your thoughts. I would say this, though - I hope I'm not saying that others are my enemy. Say rather that we're having a family squabble perhaps. I'd certainly not view the folks with whom I take issue as an enemy, even though I may disagree with them passionately.

Chris - I hear you. Well said.

I think I understand your push-back from the abuse of power that you've experienced. I've been exposed to it myself and I think it's largely due to pride, which, unfortunately is not uncommon. Sometimes pride is dressed up real nice and hidden under "concern for the things of God." It isn't until you get close to such people or you work closely with them that you get a glimpse of the pride.

But my question would be, does the ec model/structure eliminate the pride/power problem over against the evangelical or traditional church model? If it doesn't then ec won't fix the problem - that's one for sanctification.

Also, about ec being a prophetic voice to evangelical/traditional branch of the family: it would seem to me that the more popular the ec movement becomes (i.e., people are leaving the evangelical/traditional church and finding a home in ec), the more likely evangelicals and traditionalists will take notice. However, if pride/power is their M.O., a dwindling membership won't bring them to their knees - it will only bring them to name calling, hoping to cast dispersion on ec. I don't know that this will happen or is happening. For the sake of the Body, I hope it doesn't.

I don't know the answer or even if my thoughts make sense. I'm just thinking out in black and white.

I'm with Chris, this is one of the best words I've seen in a while: "conservafundagelicalism".

The funny thing is, up until about 4 years ago, I was one of those cats! :-)

I just went though this whole ordeal this week. I was asked to speak at a local "men's" seminar. Two days later, I get an email stating that one of the church elders of the church that was putting the seminar on, wanted to know what my thoughts on "Eternal Salvation" and "Baptism in the Spirit" were.

I answered them, and I'll share that answer if you like, but man did it sadden my heart that I would possibly be guaged by someone to be "good" or "bad" based on two things that in the big scheme of things are insignificant. Anyway.., my brother in law turned me on to this blog. Good stuff. Thanks man.

In His Love,

Richie

Apologies for the delay in responding to comments - I've been traveling for the past few days.

reid - I don't know that there's a model or structure that's advocated by ec proponents. I'd say rather that there's a differing understanding of authority and the purpose of "leadership". More traditional Protestant models - particularly those from Reformed churches - emphasize authority in the sense of top-down structures. The authority of the ones in charge, whether on the local or on the larger scale, is held to be the delegated authority of God. And while I think this isn't inaccurate, the way that usually plays out is that it's interpreted in the sense of "so what we say is right and you must obey" - which is quite certainly not authority in the way of Jesus. Overwhelmingly, the ec seems to propose models of "leadership" that are servant-based, distributed, and empowering. So while pride is certainly a problem for all of us, and we would be foolish to think otherwise, I think that a distributed model can at least help to remove the structural support that is often given to abusive leaders. Does that make sense?

richie - I know what you mean. The church that I served at most recently (until about three years ago) said that they wanted to major on the majors and minor on the minors. And I think the first group of leaders really thought that way (it was a recent plant), but the second group didn't really give any indication that there were any minors. Everything became a major - which is part of the reason that I'm no longer there.

Thanks for dropping by!

Scott,
I certainly can weep with you and others in the Church over our inability to model the way of Jesus. It's a catch 22, we know that the Church is to be the called community of faith, but we also know the Church often makes a sham of the whole reality itself.

I think you're on to something when talking about models of Church leadership. I think the more we can tap into more ancient and sacramental models of church leadership the better. For example, in the ancient Churches (Orthodox, Roman, Anglican), there is an actual type of minister who is basically raised up as a model Jesus' servanthood -- that is the ordained diaconate. You take vows to be a servant to God's people and to have a particular concern for the poor.

While we in these ancient traditions don't always embody what we profess -- at least we have the tradition and the ancient ways of being the Church rooted in Scripture and Holy Tradition.

I see some good attempts at modeling a different kind of leadership in the emerging church movement. Though I think could tap more into the ancient models for church leadership.

In Christ,
K+

I've been thinking about this recently, to be honest. Granted, I think there's often a romanticism of the unknown, but it does seem to me that the ancient models at the least confront the power issue in a different way. I mean, you just don't hear discussions about how the Catholic church is run like a business (for example). I'm sure there are other complaints instead - we do like to do that sort of thing, after all ;) - but it seems to avoid some of the mess that some of the Protestant models have created. There's probably a reason for that that's rooted deep in Protestantism itself - but that's a different post entirely!

Hope all is well.